Written by Don Byrd
During Wednesday night’s Republican presidential debates, issues related to religion were raised a few times. Here’s a run-down and transcript of the discussions.
In one dialogue during the main debate, Governor Huckabee argued that the Supreme Court’s Obergefell decision prohibiting state law bans on same-sex marriage should not be followed because the Court lacked the authority to make the ruling. Governor Bush, countered that the decision should not simply be ignored, but argued for religious accommodations.
In another exchange, Governor Bush emphasized his role in creating Florida’s school voucher program in Florida allowing a kid to go to a Christian school. (He did not mention that the program was ruled unconstitutional by the Florida Supreme Court.)
Finally, Ohio Governor Kasich at one point suggested that the battle against the terrorist group ISIS should be fought with the “Jewish and Christian principles” of Western Civilization.
Meanwhile, in the “undercard debate,” candidates discussed even more extensively Kim Davis, religious accommodation, and the Supreme Court’s authority to interpret the Constitution.
Read all of the excerpts below. From the Washington Post transcript:
Governor Huckabee, Bush, Discuss Kim Davis, Religious Accommodation, and Supreme Court Authority
TAPPER: I want to turn back to Governor Huckabee.
Governor Huckabee, last week, you held a rally for a county clerk in Kentucky who was jailed for refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, as I don’t need to tell you.
You’ve called what happened to Kim Davis, that clerk, “an example of the criminalization of Christianity.” There are several people on the stage who disagree with you.
Governor Bush, for example, says that that clerk is sworn to uphold the law. Is Governor Bush on the wrong side of the criminalization of Christianity?
HUCKABEE: No, I don’t think he’s on the wrong side of such an issue. Jeb is a friend. I’m not up here to fight with Jeb or to fight with anybody else.
But I am here to fight for somebody who is a county clerk elected under the Kentucky constitution that 75 percent of the people of that state had voted for that said that marriage was between a man and a woman.
The Supreme Court in a very, very divided decision decided out of thin air that they were just going to redefine marriage. It’s a decision that the other justices in dissent said they didn’t have and there wasn’t a constitutional shred of capacity for them to do it.
I thought that everybody here passed ninth-grade civics. The courts cannot legislate. That’s what Roberts said. But heck, it’s what we learned in civics.
The courts can’t make a law. They can interpret one. They can review one. They can’t implement it. They can’t force it.
But here’s what happened: Because the courts just decided that something was going to be and people relinquished it and the other two branches of government sat by silently — I thought we had three branches of government, they were all equal to each other, we have separation of powers, and we have checks and balances.
If the court can just make a decision and we just all surrender to it, we have what Jefferson said was judicial tyranny.
The reason that this is a real issue that we need to think about…
TAPPER: Thank you, Governor.
HUCKABEE: No, no. Let me finish this one thought, Jake. I haven’t gotten that much time, so I’m going to take just what little I can here.
We made accommodation to the Fort Hood shooter to let him grow a beard.We made accommodations to the detainees at Gitmo — I’ve been to Gitmo, and I’ve seen the accommodations that we made to the Muslim detainees who killed Americans.
HUCKABEE: You’re telling me that you cannot make an accommodation for an elected Democrat county clerk from Rowan County, Kentucky? What else is it other than the criminalization of her faith and the exaltation of the faith of everyone else who might be a Fort Hood shooter or a detainee at Gitmo?
(APPLAUSE)
TAPPER: Well, I’m not telling you that, Governor. But Governor Bush is, because he — because he disagrees. He thinks that Kim Davis swore to uphold the law.
You disagree? You’re not — you don’t…
BUSH: I don’t think — you’re not stating my views right.
TAPPER: OK. Please do.
BUSH: I think there needs to be accommodation for someone acting on faith. Religious conscience is — is — is a first freedom. It’s — it’s a powerful part of our — of our Bill of Rights.
And, in a big, tolerant country, we should respect the rule of law, allow people in — in — in this country — I’m a — I was opposed to the decision, but we — you can’t just say, “well, they — gays can’t get married now.”
But this woman, there should be some accommodation for her conscience, just as there should be for people that are florists that don’t want to participate in weddings, or bakers. A great country like us should find a way to have accommodations for people so that we can solve the problem in the right way. This should be solved at the local level…
TAPPER: You did…
BUSH: And so we do agree, Mike.
CHRISTIE: I was —
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Governor, you said, quote, “she is sworn to uphold the law.”
BUSH: She is, and so if she, based on conscience, can’t sign that — that marriage license, then there should be someone in her office to be able to do it, and if the law needs to be changed in the state of Kentucky, which is what she’s advocating, it should be changed.
Governor Bush Invokes his Voucher Program
BUSH: Well, I’ve been speaking English here tonight, and I’ll keep speaking English.
But the simple fact is, if a high school kid asks me a question in Spanish, a school — by the way, a voucher program that was created under my watch, the largest voucher program in the country, where kids can go to a Christian school, and they ask me a question in Spanish, I’m going to show respect and answer that question in Spanish.
Even though they do speak English, and even though they embrace American values.
Governor Kasich on Isis and Western Civilization
KASICH: I called for boots on the ground many months ago in a coalition with our friends who share our interest. You know, you win a battle with the military, and when we go somewhere, we need to be mobile, and lethal. We need to take care of business, and we need to come home.
But, we face, also, a bigger war — and you win the bigger war with the battle of ideas. You wonder why young people, and educated people, rich people, schooled people, have tried to join ISIS.
Western civilization, all of us, need to wake up to the fact that those murderers and rapists need to be called out, and in Western civilization we need to make it clear that our faith in the Jewish and Christian principals force us to live a life bigger than ourselves…
TAPPER: …Thank you, Governor…
KASICH: …to make (ph) centers (ph) of justice so that we can battle the radicals, call them out for what they are, and make sure that all of our people feel fulfilled in living in Western civilization…
TAPPER: …Thank you, Governor.
Undercard Debate Discusses Kim Davis, Supreme Court Authority, and “Discrimination Against Christians”
JINDAL: . . . The biggest discrimination is going on against Christian business owners and individuals who believe in traditional forms of marriage. They are throwing this woman in jail in Kentucky.
(APPLAUSE)
Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the Christian florist, the caterer, the musician, who simply want to say, don’t arrest us for having — or don’t discriminate against us, don’t shut down our businesses, don’t fine us thousands of dollars for believing marriage is between a man and a woman. Lets talk about not discriminating against Christians.
TAPPER: Thank you, Governor. We will get to that subject later in the debate.
Senator Graham?
GRAHAM: Well, you know, Kim Davis, I’m not worried about her attacking me. I am worried about radical Islamic terrorists who are already here planning another 9/11.
We’re at war, folks. I’m not fighting a crime. I want to have a legal system that understands the difference between fighting a war and fighting a crime, and here’s the reality. Young men from the Mid- East are different than Kim Davis. And we’ve got to understand that.
TAPPER: Thank you, Senator.
GRAHAM: Islamic websites need to be monitored.
PATAKI: Jake…
GRAHAM: And if you are on one, I want to know what you’re doing.
TAPPER: Governor Pataki?
PATAKI: Jake, if I can comment on this. Yes, Kim Davis is different from Islamist radicalists from the Middle East.
But on the other hand, we have run rule in America, an elected official can’t say I’m not going to follow that law if it conflicts with my beliefs. I think she should have been fired and if she worked for me, I would have fired her. We have to uphold the rule of law.
(APPLAUSE)
TAPPER: Thank you, Governor.
PATAKI: Imagine one minute — Jake, imagine one minute that was a Muslim who said I don’t believe in gay marriage, and refused to perform that wedding. We wouldn’t have had that outrage. There’s a place where religion supersedes the rule of law. It’s called Iran. It shouldn’t be the United States.
…
TAPPER: Senator Santorum, do you agree with Governor Pataki?
SANTORUM: 16 years ago, this country was tremendously inspired by a young woman who faced a gunman in Columbine and was challenged about her faith and she refused to deny God. We saw her as a hero.
Today, someone who refuses to defy (sic) a judge’s unconstitutional verdict is ridiculed and criticized, chastised because she’s standing up and denying — not denying her God and her faith.
That is a huge difference in 16 years. People have a fundamental right in the First Amendment. There’s no more important right. It is the right that is the trunk that all other rights come from, and that’s the freedom of conscience.
And when we say in America that we have no room — how many bakers, how many florists, how many pastors, how many clerks are we going to throw in jail because they stand up and say, “I cannot violate what my faith says is against its teachings”? Is there not room in America? I believe there has to be room.
First, I believe we have to pass the First Amendment Defense Act, which provides that room for government officials and others who do not want to be complicit in what they believe is against their faith.
Second, we need as a president who’s going to fight a court that is abusive, that has superseded their authority. Judicial supremacy is not in the Constitution, and we need a president and a Congress to stand up to a court when it exceeds its constitutional authority.
(APPLAUSE)
TAPPER: Thank you, Senator.
Governor Pataki, your response?
PATAKI: My response is kind of, “Wow.” You know, we’re going to have a president who defies the Supreme Court because they don’t agree?
SANTORUM: I hope so. If they’re wrong.
PATAKI: Then you don’t have the rule of law…
SANTORUM: No, what you have is judicial supremacy. You don’t have a rule of law when the court has the final say on everything.
PATAKI: The — the elected representatives of the people always have the opportunity to change that law. The Supreme Court makes a determination, but it’s ultimately the elected officials who decide whether or not that would be accepted.
By the way, if I have a chance to lead this country, I will appoint judges who understand their role. They’re not going to be making the law; they’re going to be interpreting law that the elected officials passed.
PATAKI: But there’s a huge difference between an individual standing up and saying I am going to stand for my religious freedom and my religious rights. I applaud that. This is America. You should be able to engage in your religious belief in the way you see fit.
But when you are an elected official and you take an oath of office to uphold the law, all the laws, you cannot pick and choose or you no longer have a society that depends on the rule of law.
(APPLAUSE)
TAPPER: Thank you, Senator Santorum?
SANTORUM: Martin Luther King wrote a letter from the Birmingham jail. And he said in that letter that there are just laws and there are unjust laws. And we have no obligation to — to condone and accept unjust laws.
And he — and they — then he followed up and said what’s an unjust law?
An unjust law is a job that — a law that go against the moral code or God’s law or the natural law.
I would argue that what the Supreme Court did is against the natural law, it’s against God’s law and we have every obligation to stand in opposition to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jake…
PATAKI: Yes, I — I didn’t agree with the Supreme Court’s decision, but it is the law of this land. And I am a great admirer of Martin Luther King. And he was prepared to break the law. But it wasn’t in an office of political power. It was civil disobedience, where what he was willing to do is voluntarily go to jail with his followers to send a message to the elected representatives that these laws were wrong and had to be changed.
And because of his courage, we didn’t ignore the courts, we changed the laws and made America a better place. That’s the way to do it.
TAPPER: Thank you, Governor.
JINDAL: Jake — Jake… (CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: We’re coming to both of you.
JINDAL: Jake, I’ve got a practical question.
TAPPER: What…
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: I’ve got a practical question. I’d like the left to give us a list of jobs that Christians aren’t allowed to have. If we’re not allowed to be clerks, bakers, musicians, caterers, are we allowed to be pastors (INAUDIBLE)?
TAPPER: Governor Jindal…
JINDAL: We’re not allowed to be elected officials. I firmly — this is an important point. The First Amendment rights, the right to religious freedom is in the First Amendment of “The Constitution.” It isn’t breaking the law to exercise our constitutional rights. America did not create religious liberty, religious liberty created the United States of America. It is the reason we’re here today.
…
TAPPER: Senator Graham, do you want to weigh in?
GRAHAM: I wasn’t the best law student. By the end of this debate, it would be the most time I’ve ever spent in any library.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAHAM: But on the first day in law school view (ph), it’s called “Marbury v. Madison.” The group in our constitutional democracy that interprets “The Constitution” as to what it means is the Supreme Court. In a 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court, they have ruled that same-sex marriage bans at the state level violate the Fourteenth Amendment to “The United States Constitution” equal protection clause.
I don’t agree with it, but that is the law of the land. But as president, what I want make sure of is that everybody in this room, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever religion that you can practice your faith without government interference, you can marry people consistent with the tenets of your faith. That’s the number one obligation of my presidency, is to protect religious people when they exercise their religious rights.
But this decision is the law as it is of right now.
And here’s the one thing I want to tell you, Jake.
TAPPER: Thank you, Senator.
GRAHAM: Wait — wait a minute.
Whether you’re the wedding cake baker or the gay couple or the Baptist preacher, radical Islam would kill you all if they could.
TAPPER: Senator…
GRAHAM: Let’s don’t lose sight of the big picture here.
The next presidential debate will feature the Democratic candidates, on October 13.
