S7, Ep. 02: Amanda and Holly LIVE on peaceful protests, the impact of the government shutdown, and more

In this LIVE conversation, Amanda and Holly take a moment to catch up and review some of the recent news since last week’s program. They discuss how religious leaders have been engaging in peaceful protests of immigration raids, how the ongoing government shutdown is impacting court cases, a change in Oklahoma regarding Bible teaching in public schools, and more. This show first aired live on Thursday, October 23, at 11 a.m. Eastern Time on BJC’s YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram channels. 

SHOW NOTES:

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Read more about how faith leaders are protesting immigration raids in this article by Jack Jenkins for Religion News Service: After clergy arrests, religious pushback to ICE expands in Chicago

Amanda and Holly talked about Ryan Walters and his edict to have certain Bibles in Oklahoma public school classrooms on Episode 2 of Season 6: Oklahoma and Texas try to force Bible teaching in public schools 

Read this update on what’s happening in Oklahoma now: New Oklahoma schools superintendent rescinds mandate for Bible instruction in schools

Hear Amanda on NPR’s All Things Considered in this piece from Jason DeRose: Progressive Christians counter Christian Nationalism message

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. Your gift to BJC is tax-deductible, and you can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Watch the video of this program below:

 Transcript:  S7, Ep. 02: Amanda and Holly LIVE on peaceful protests, the impact of the government shutdown, and more (some portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity)

AMANDA: What we’re seeing is that the violence that’s being enacted against these religious protesters is not deterring their action. In fact, it’s encouraging more people to join their action.

 

AMANDA: Well, good morning, and welcome to a live recording of Respecting Religion, a BJC podcast series where we look at religion, the law, and what’s at stake for faith freedom today. I’m Amanda Tyler.

HOLLY: And I’m Holly Hollman. We are back with everyone live today. We planned this in advance, because we have learned in producing this podcast that so much happens so quickly that sometimes even recording a show a few days in advance of its release makes it outdated.

Plus it’s always fun to be together this way and with all of you, to give a quick episode in between our more in-depth episodes regarding the specific cases and other developments in the courts, legislatures, or public square that affect faith freedom for all.

AMANDA: Well, good morning, everyone. Good morning, Holly.

HOLLY: Good morning.

AMANDA: I am happy to be joining you from beautiful — and quite chilly — Minneapolis, Minnesota. We’re here in the Twin Cities with the BJC team for our annual lecture series. We had a great event last night with our lecturer, Dr. Sergio González, on the criminalization of mercy. And we are going to be bringing his full lecture to this podcast in just a couple of weeks.

Dr. González is a historian of U.S. immigration, labor, and religion, and he brought his personal lecture style — which is to tell stories — to the event as a real challenge for us as we look to how do we address the crises that we’re facing today. Having been in the room last night for the lecture, I can highly recommend it, and I cannot wait to share it with our listeners here on the podcast.

HOLLY: Well, Amanda, so glad to hear that that lecture series is going well and that you’re getting to engage with people in Minnesota and that we’ll get to share that with everyone who’s interested, because certainly, telling stories, being witnesses to what’s going on is a really important way that we can protect our country and our fellow neighbors. And so I am really looking forward to that, because, as we know, these stories are developing day by day as we go.

Meanwhile, I am here in D.C. at BJC’s headquarters on Capitol Hill. I came in this morning, and it’s nice to have a beautiful, sunny day in the low 60s with the fall colors. I was particularly thankful for that natural beauty as I came in, because it is a really continuing strange time in the nation’s capital.

You know, coming in, I’m passing the bulldozing of the East Wing of the White House, and this is happening amidst a continuing government shutdown, a particularly long one, and we’ve been through these before, Amanda, but this one’s, you know — this feels a little different.

Big questions about the effect of this shutdown as it goes on, not only on government services that we’ll be missing, but here really in this area, a lot of focus on individuals and families with deferred paychecks, continuing stories about potential efforts to use the shutdown to speed up highly questionable efforts to reduce the federal workforce, and, you know, a lot of moving parts about who gets paid when.

And, it’s very serious for not only this area but other places that are affected by and the important work that federal workers do with, it’s been reported, roughly more than 700,000 federal employees are working without pay, and another nearly that many have been furloughed. So those are the times we’re in.

AMANDA: Well, thanks for bringing that real human impact, you know, to the podcast and to the conversation. Having lived in Washington for a number of those shutdowns, I know it’s a strange time to be in the city, that you can really feel a noticeable difference with so many people who have been furloughed and are not going to work.

But what’s particularly odd about this one to me, Holly, is the lack of news coverage overall, or maybe it’s just the competing news coverage with so many other urgent matters going on. This is not the top story every day. But here we are, as we record live, on day 23 of a government shutdown and the very real consequences.

HOLLY: Yeah. I think that’s a really good point, that there’s so much happening in the world that it’s hard to keep up with, but as we all know, some places you can’t escape the effects, and I’m living in one of them.

And as we know, Amanda, among the many consequences of the shutdown that as of Monday, October 20, federal courts no longer have funding to sustain full paid operations. Until the ongoing lapse in government funding is resolved, federal courts will maintain limited operations necessary to perform the judiciary’s constitutional functions. So we’re seeing how that plays out.

AMANDA: And that’s a real impact particularly in this time, when there’s so much litigation going on in the federal courts, challenging the actions of the Trump administration, so unclear now — you know, that just happened on Monday, where the U.S. courts announced that they no longer had funding to sustain more than the necessary operations. What does that look like?

So one case that we know there’s already going to be an impact is a case we’ve been tracking and actually we’re going to be talking about much more in depth on an upcoming episode on this podcast, but the pending case involving the Johnson Amendment.

A very quick reminder: The Johnson Amendment is that part of the tax code that protects houses of worship and other 501(c)(3) nonprofits from political pressure that would come to make candidate endorsements or otherwise to participate or intervene in elections for candidates for public office.

And, again, we’re not going to get into the details of the litigation or what’s at stake. We’ll talk about that on an upcoming episode soon, but there had been a hearing scheduled in that case, actually in Washington, D.C., for November 7. Last week, the federal government, which is a party in the case as the IRS, asked the Court to stay that hearing and all related deadlines for the duration of the shutdown.

We were somewhat surprised that on that same day, the government denied that request and said, you know, the hearing’s going to go forward, but then just yesterday, the judge came back and cancelled the hearing altogether. So that seems to insert some uncertainty into what might happen for that case.

HOLLY: I think what we’re seeing, not only in this time of uncertainty in the law because of changes in the courts, we’re also just seeing a lot of uncertainty because of the shutdown in process, and of course, that does affect how justice is adjudicated.

And in the meantime, Amanda, I think we should talk about the larger protests and things that are going on. So, you know, people fight it out in the courts, but we’re really seeing a lot of resistance day to day, some in large organized protests and some in kind of day-to-day showing up for each other. Particularly we’d note the religious leaders are engaging in peaceful protests of immigration raids and detentions.

AMANDA: Yeah. So, of course, one of the many policy priorities that this administration is pursuing is trying to engage in mass deportation, removing residents of this country, often and usually without due process of law. And we’ve seen over the last several months as this effort has been going on that the law enforcement in these actions are often engaging in pretty extreme and violent tactics, including raids and grabbing people off the streets to take them to detention centers.

And as you note, we’ve seen resistance and protests of those actions, including from — and I think very notably from — faith leaders, including clergy, around the country, protesting these actions. We’ve seen them show up at vigils outside of ICE offices and detention centers, engaging in court observations, to be present at immigration proceedings.

I’ve seen this, you know, of course, in news coverage but also in my own hometown of Dallas. There’s a group of very committed clergy and other faith leaders who do this on a regular basis, show up weekly to an ICE processing office for vigils, but also have been trained and are going to courts to accompany people for their visits.

And this action really provides, I believe, not just an acting out or an exercise of their faith, but also an important moral presence in these places, to protest what in many cases they feel and I also do as immoral action, and they’re doing it as it is coming directly from their faith tradition, from their conscience.

HOLLY: Yeah. I think it’s important to highlight that. Often we talk about people being so eager — so uncomfortable and eager to want to do something, and it’s important to note what people are doing to encourage others to continue the work that faith leaders do, but joining with others in their communities to stand up for the kind of country that we purport to be and that we want to be.

I know in the news, we have heard a lot about action in Chicago. That’s one of the president’s favorite places to pick on and talk about, where he’s going to send extra law enforcement.

And in Chicago, the actions of law enforcement against these peaceful protesters, we see, has been more extreme, notably ICE agents firing pepper balls from rooftop on Rev. David Black, a Presbyterian minister, who stood below, praying outside the ICE detention center in Broadview, Illinois.

And that video of that attack went viral, and so, you know, it was a very clear, explicit witness of faith leaders, among others, being present, protesting peacefully and the kind of danger that that sometimes leads to.

AMANDA: Yeah. I think the word is not encouraging, but at least it is important, I think, that we have video evidence of what’s going on, and that particular image of these heavily armed agents standing on a rooftop, firing below at this man, Rev. Black, in his clerical clothing, you know, with his arms outstretched, praying, really provided this, I think catalytic image for people to really understand what was happening.

But it wasn’t only this video, but also it’s now in the courts, because Rev. Black is a plaintiff in a case that’s pending in Federal District Court in the Northern District of Illinois. That case is called Chicago Headline Club v. Noem. And the plaintiffs in that case are mostly journalists but also religious leaders like Rev. Black.

And the judge in that case recently entered a temporary restraining order to prevent federal agents from using a variety of riot control weapons on, quote, “members of the press, protesters, or religious practitioners who are not posing an immediate threat to the safety of a law enforcement officer or others.”

And the plaintiffs in that case are raising First Amendment claims, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion, as part of the basis. And so I think it is important to use every lever in our democratic system, including the courts, to really be sure as these actions are going that federal agents are not overreaching in their power, particularly with these increasingly violent actions.

HOLLY: Yeah. It’s also a reminder, probably this group but certainly others that we’re hearing about, are getting trained in nonviolent resistance, you know, and that’s harking back to other times in our country, but certainly something that is important that people continue to do as they show up in large numbers and [are] at risk of something like this happening.

AMANDA: Yeah. And earlier this week, 210 clergy from Chicago released an open letter titled, “Jesus is Being Tear Gassed at Broadview,” Broadview again being the name of the detention center. In the letter, the clergy quote scripture and Martin Luther King’s letter from the Birmingham jail to explain to the public why, despite the threat of violence or arrest, that their faith demands their protest.

And since the letter’s release, it has garnered another 100 signatures to the letter from Chicago-area clergy. So I think what we’re seeing is that the violence that’s being enacted against these religious protesters is only — is not deterring their action. In fact, it’s encouraging more people to join their action.

This is definitely something that was covered in Dr. González’s episode, so I’ll tease that again, and if you want to learn more about this particular developing story out of Chicago, we really recommend the reporting of Jack Jenkins of Religion News Service and specifically his piece that’s out this week titled, “After clergy arrests, religious pushback to ICE expands in Chicago.” And for those of you who are listening to this on the Respecting Religion feed, you can see a link to that article in our show notes.

HOLLY: That’s right. And I’m sure there’ll be more. People will be drawn to this story. Maybe they’ll be encouraged to show up in different ways, but we all should be reminded that this is happening in this large context of now, I would say, growing consistency of large demonstrations of nonviolent protesters pushing back against the excesses of the administration.

You know, this past weekend there were reportedly more than 7 million at the No Kings protests that happened across the country, including here in the nation’s capital but also in all the small surrounding suburbs. And it’s really remarkable to see that kind of resistance.

AMANDA: Yeah. So we’re kind of just trying to pick up on some of the stories that caught our attention over the past week, Holly. I mean, and so sometimes usually on our podcast, we might not have time to go into depth, but since we’re doing these live episodes, we did want to provide another update from the state of Oklahoma.

So listeners of the podcast might remember that we have, on occasion, talked about Oklahoma on this podcast and specifically Ryan Walters, who until very recently was serving as the state superintendent of schools.

HOLLY: Really making a name for himself.

AMANDA: Right. I think that was the point, Holly, actually. You know, I’d talk to friends from Oklahoma, and they’d say, you know, We really wish that our state superintendent of schools was not a national name, like that’s not a good thing.

So we talked actually last season, season 6, episode 2, about his mandate to use state funds to purchase a Bible for every public school classroom. And so, listeners, if you heard that or want to go back, you can listen to that. And then that edict actually prompted a lawsuit that was filed last fall by Oklahoma parents, challenging that action, among other things under the Oklahoma State Constitution.

And those plaintiffs did win a temporary stay of that action back in March, so I think it’s important — on this podcast we talk about religion and the law, so it’s important to see how these legal actions really do provide important pushback.

Yeah. But the update that we have to share with everyone on this case is kind of put into motion by a recent resignation.

HOLLY: That’s right. Ryan Walters abruptly resigned from his position to take a new job, leading the anti-union organization called Teacher Freedom Alliance. And the Oklahoma governor, Gov. Kevin Stitt, appointed Lindel Fields to the position. So we’ve got a new person coming in. And last week, Fields announced that he has, quote, “no plans to distribute Bibles or biblical character education curriculum in classrooms,” close quote.

So great development for Oklahoma schools, great pushback for these efforts that we’ve seen in different states to promote religion and specifically Christianity in the public schools, to use the schools in improper ways, and it’s a really positive development. So we can put a article about that in our show notes for further attention.

AMANDA: Yeah. And then, I guess, finally our last kind of update —

HOLLY: Not everyone has learned their lessons. Right, Amanda? So I guess we probably should mention those who haven’t.

AMANDA: Right. Exactly. We want to mention when we get news, but here’s — we’re going to end on just kind of another example of harmful rhetoric that really continues to be put in, and particularly rhetoric that furthers this Christian nationalism in our culture.

So you mentioned just a few minutes ago the No Kings Day rallies that were held around the country. This is kind of the second round of rallies. The first one was in June. The last one was this past weekend. And, you know, huge crowds turned out. They were, by and large, peaceful events, joyful events even, really bringing people out to celebrate American democracy and raise their concerns about what they were seeing that harmed those democratic principles.

You know, but in addition to the support, these rallies drew some criticism and particularly from Republican office-holders. One office-holder, Representative Tom Emmer of Minnesota, decried the events as “Hate America rallies.”

HOLLY: They actually tried to do that ahead of time. Right?

AMANDA: That’s right.

HOLLY: Tried to brand this, to get ready, these horrible things happening, and we know from direct eyewitness that that’s not what was going on.

AMANDA: Yeah. I think they were quite perversely hoping that there would be some kind of violent action, and there just wasn’t. Right? So, you know, I think most Republicans tried to move on after that, but not Representative Chip Roy, this firebrand out of Texas.

Monday he was at a press conference with other House Republican leaders, ostensibly to talk about the shutdown, but he got a little off script during that, and he said, quote, “The truth is the Marxists, the radicals, and the Islamists the Democratic Party, promoted this weekend, they cannot handle the truth, and the truth is that there is a king, and that king is Jesus, and the president has been willing to say it. His administration has been willing to say it, and Charlie Kirk was willing to say it, and he got killed for it.”

So this is really dangerous rhetoric, I think, Holly. You know, I mean, I think, one, you could just kind of, as maybe some of the other Republican leaders were wishing, like let’s just move on, but this is a pattern of trying to push this theocratic view, this view that all Americans are Christians and all Americans will affirm, you know, this kind of thinking that he puts forward, and to try to align the administration, his party, with Christ and with Christianity, and to label anyone who opposes the administration for any reason as extremists, as outside of Christianity, and if you kind of continue along this, then [they’re] therefore, subject to attack, subject to some kind of even violence in some ways.

And so I just saw this and thought, you know, this continues to be, and then to try to invoke, again, the assassination of Charlie Kirk as being aligned with this idea is a really troubling direction that we continue to see.

HOLLY: Yeah. It shows really the direct assault on our tradition of religious freedom for all in this country. So we should all pay attention to that and use our voices to speak up for faith freedom for all, understanding that we have people of all different religions and different political parties that want peaceful protests and accountability for our government.

And I’m glad, Amanda, then that gave you an opportunity to talk about that with NPR recently. Is that right?

AMANDA: Yeah. So I had a chance to talk with NPR’s religion reporter, Jason DeRose, about how some Christians were responding to that invocation of theocracy or trying to wrap the political cause of Charlie Kirk into some kind of religious cause as well, and trying to pull out of that a religious mandate for Republican power.

And so we’ll put a link in show notes to the piece which ran on All Things Considered last night. I spoke, but also a number of other faith leaders were quoted in that piece.

HOLLY: Well, thank you for that. And before we go, I want to note that yesterday was the one-year anniversary of your book. And BJC’s doing a book giveaway. We posted about it on the Instagram of the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, and to be entered to win, you have to follow three accounts on Instagram: @endChristiannationalism, @BJContheHill, and @AmandaTylerBJC.

Then you have to like the post we have about the giveaway and have to comment on it, to tell us who you’d share the book with, and — who you’re going to share it with after you read it. And winners will be selected Saturday. The book, of course, is How to End Christian Nationalism.

And as our brief program today has demonstrated, that is something that we should all be focused on. There’s so much to be done, and if you’re frustrated and looking for ways to do something, a good way to start is with that book.

I also want to mention that you have an opportunity to join the Respecting Religion email newsletter. We had a lot of people sign up for our email newsletter about the show, and everyone who signed up got an email yesterday. So if you want updates on the show throughout the season, including updates on when we go live, if so, visit the link in our show notes or scan the QR code that’s going to be up on the screen.

So it’s great to be with you all, and that brings us to the close of this episode of Respecting Religion. Thank you so much for showing up with us today for this live show.

AMANDA: And next week, October 30, we will be discussing the Johnson Amendment and how it protects nonprofits, including houses of worship, and how it is newly under attack.

HOLLY: For more information on what we discussed and a transcript of the program, visit our website at RespectingReligion.org.

AMANDA: Learn more about our work at BJC defending faith freedom for all by visiting our website, BJConline.org.

HOLLY: Plus you can send both of us an email by writing to [email protected].

AMANDA: You can find clips of the show on social media. We’re @BJContheHill, and you can follow me on X, Bluesky, and Threads @AmandaTylerBJC.

HOLLY: Join us on Thursdays for new conversations Respecting Religion. We’ll be back in your feeds on October 30 to talk about the threats to and protections of Johnson Amendment.